Posts by Cold Steel

64

A great picture for proving that JWs aren't weird and cultish...

by cedars in

it's a shame this is only in the study edition, so the general public can't see how normal and down-to-earth the witnesses are in how they perceive themselves.... .

.

cedars.

Mormon leaders reach out to gays, lesbian. I,am shocked!!

by jam in

mormon leaders made their most signifcant outreach.

yet to gays and lesbians, unveiling a new website thursday.

that encourages church members to be more compassionate.

Yes, they are. But why is that so surprising? We’ve never taught hate towards homosexuals, but rather, compassion. In fact, the church has never taught hatred against anyone. I watch every LDS Conference (twice a year), and I’ve never heard our leaders teach that gays would be damned to an eternal hell, not resurrected or that they weren’t loved by God. At the same time, they cannot condone their actions or their lifestyles. So yes, providing they refrain from homosexual acts, they can be members in good faith and fellowship, partake of the sacramental emblems, hold the priesthood, receive their endowments in the temple and enjoy all the blessings of church membership.

That’s horrible if true, but it does not surprise me! They are a cult, same as JWs.

What's horrible if true? That LDS leaders are trying to be more compassionate? Or are you advocating that the church accept their lifestyles as well? As for us being a cult, that’s fair. First Century Christianity was a cult as well, at least as the Romans saw it.

30

So we are created in God's Image and expected to freely forgive those who trespass against us..so why doesn't HE?

by StoneWall in

we kinda all know the scriptures about freely forgiving those who trespass(sin) against us and jesus words about forgiving up to seventy-seven times etc... then we take into account how god hates two sets of scales to measure with: (quotes from nwt).

proverbs 20:23 " two sorts of weights are something detestable to jehovah, and a cheating pair of scales is not good.. proverbs 20:10 " two sorts of weights and two sorts of ephah measuresthey are both of them together something detestable to jehovah.. so my question is this.

why not lead by example?.

Cold Steel

If I recall correctly it was only one trespass that got Adam and Eve thrown out of the garden of Eden.

In the realms we came from, the law of justice governs even God. When Adam transgressed, it was to bring about the fall, which was a necessary part of our progression. In the councils of Heaven, God knew that even one transgression of his word would require a separation of Man and God. That's why an Intercessor and a Savior was required. Had not he met the demands of justice, he would have ceased to be God. That's why he couldn't remove the "bitter cup" that his Son freely partook of. When Adam transgressed, he gave his posterity a precious gift, which was the Light of Christ; that is, the knowledge of good and evil. He could not have had posterity without this knowledge, nor could he obtain exaltation, which is the greatest gift of God. The Intercessor and Savior was Jehovah, born into mortality as Jesus Christ. At the end of the Millennium, Jehovah will present the Earth, glorified and perfected, to the Father, and all Mankind will be judged and will bend the knee and confess that Jesus is the Christ. All will be resurrected and, contrary to JW doctrine, no one will be annihilated. It’s only through the Atonement that God can receive us back into his presence. And in the same way we forgive others, so will we be forgiven for our transgressions. As the author of our salvation, Jehovah will be the judge of all Mankind. (John 5:22)

It was only one trespass that got Moses in hot water and not allowed to enter the promised land. (Failure to give God credit for bringing forth water from the rocks etc.)

According to extrabiblical scriptures, Moses was not denied entry into the Promised Land because of his iniquities, but because of the iniquities of the Israelites. It was because of their sins and their rejection of God that he was taken from their midst. There is a strong Hebrew tradition that Moses did not die, but that he was assumed into heaven on a cloud:

Moses ascended in the cloud, was hidden by the cloud, and was sanctified by the cloud. (Babylonian Talmud Yoma 4a)

When Moses was to ascend, a cloud descended and lay before him... And the cloud covered Moses and carried him up. (Pesikta Rabbati 20:4)

Josephus also records that when Moses, Eleazar and Joshua embraced on the mountain called Abarim, Moses disappeared in a cloud. Also witnessing this event were the seventy elders of Israel, the same who had seen God and dined in his presence. The notion that Moses was taken up is strengthened by the appearance of both Elijah and Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration. Since nothing is done without a purpose, the question of what they were doing on the mount is not answered in scripture. My point is that trying to make judgments against God is fraught with unknown details that aren’t always in the scriptures.

31

Conversation i had with a witness girl on Facebook recently

by MsGrowingGirl20 in

i posted a really nice song....here's the link to it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn2uydzuoqu.

five minutes after this happened.. .

Cold Steel

Most Christian churches have their own way of dealing with the inherent polytheism involved in their dogma. The Jehovah's Witnesses see Jesus Christ as one of God’s mighty angels. Evangelicals and other Trinitarians see the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as being ONE substance, but three distinct identities. The biblical scriptures, however, explain it as an analogy. Jesus prayed to the Father, asking him to bless them that “they might be ONE, even as WE are ONE.” The reader has only to determine the way, and in which condition, the Twelve were ONE.

Did it mean they were one in substance, but distinct individuals? Or did it mean that the Twelve had one presiding officer and all the others were subservient?

The Jehovah's Witnesses believe there can be only one God, so the Messiah must be a subservient being, as Adam was subservient to Jehovah. Yet Jesus said after his resurrection, “All power is given me both in heaven and in Earth.” The question then becomes, are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ONE God or Three? In Genesis, it appears that there are distinct beings speaking to one another. The text states that “Elohim,” the great head of the gods, is speaking to other divine beings, not angels. Besides being the plural form of “God,” Elohim declares, “Behold, MAN has become as ONE of US, knowing good and evil.” The notion of a divine council is one that is very old and predates the Hebrew concept of strict monotheism.

According to biblical scholar Michael S. Heiseri, “[The divine council is] the heavenly host, the pantheon of divine beings who administer the affairs of the cosmos. All ancient Mediterranean cultures had some conception of a divine council. The divine council of Israelite religion, known primarily through the psalms, was distinct in important ways.”

(Dictionary of the Old Testament: Wisdom, Poetry, & Writings; ed. Tremper Longman and Peter Enns; InterVarsity Press, 2008)

This “pantheon of divine beings,” while not entirely consistent with traditional Judaism, is consistent with traditional Christianity, which promises that the righteous will be “co-heirs with Christ,” meaning that “everything the Father has shall be his.” Thus, in Psalm 8 we read: “When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; What is man, that thou art mindful of him? And the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the [gods], and hast crowned him with glory and honour.” The word for “gods” again is Elohim; however, the translators couldn’t bring themselves to translate it correctly because of the obvious ramifications involved.

We see, then, that God did not first make the angels, and then men; but that he first created men, whom he then used as angels until their time on Earth was prepared and ready. And afterwards, he placed a veil of forgetfulness over their minds so that they could be tested as all the other children of God are tested.

But that’s how I see it, anyhoo!

68

need to talk/vent. wifey wt problems

by unstopableravens in

my wife ask me if im going to make up the assmebly, i reminder her that i in clean conscience can not go anymore,as soon as the word anymore came out the tears started flooding.

it hurts me to see her like this.

i talked to her calm trying to explain why i cant worship with doctrine that is so clearly wrong.

Cold Steel

Well, you know my view Ravens. Keep going to assemblies with her and just pick up on the good things. Is it worth your marriage to bail out of a few meetings for the sake of making a statement? No church has the whole truth and you're free to continue believing what you wish. If a teacher asked you a question, you can say, "Well, the brethren teach..." and then you can add, "...but many worldly churches teach...." There are other ways of swinging with it, but you've got to go slow. I can imagine how I'd feel if my wife bailed on my faith, even though it doesn't condemn other religions and members to hell.

When I first read your thread title, I thought it said "wifey WEIGHT problems." But then I read the post and saw what "wt" meant.

If I became convinced that my church was wrong, I could still stick it out and believe what I want. You can bet, though, that she's not going to keep this to herself, and you shouldn't hold that against her. She's going to have to talk to someone about it and she's most likely VERY unhappy. I wish you the best of luck, but my recommendation is to go in, hug her, tell her you've decided to keep on attending assemblies with her. You can say you still have doubts, but that that's natural and you don't think God will hold it against you. Tell her you're still reading the publications and the scriptures, and that whatever decisions you make, you'll make together.

I don't know any church that teaches 100 percent truth, and anyone that tells you that you'll be damned to hell for remaining a JW doesn't understand God nor do they believe the scriptures. It's probably more important to God that you stay with your wife and make her happy. Offer to read the scriptures with her and bring up some of the things that are nagging at you. But right now she's insecure and she thinks you're an apostate. That means, to her, that she'll be resurrected and you won't. So for now try to see it her way.

Best of luck to you!

8

A world without borders, your perspective.

by jam in

michael clemens has some interesting ideas about free.

movement of labour throughout the world.. " a modest relaxation of barries to human mobility between.

countries would bring more global economic prosperity than.

Cold Steel

I had a friend who used to say, "Yeah, I'm for World Government...as long as it's OUR Government!"

There are a number of people in the U.S. and U.N. that would love to change our Constitution and ultimately advance a world government. They don't want people having guns and being able to listen to right wing AM radio for hours on end without a FREE equal time requirement. Forget the fact that people like Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck routinely ask administration officials and other liberals for comments and interviews. And recently, Obama called for an unlimited debt limit while his fellow travelers want to tax the wealthy one percent of their net worth each year!

I've never agreed with that crap on the Statue of Liberty. Unfettered immigration is not something the founding fathers championed. We're letting too many Muslims into this country, and while many of them are good, decent people, their children many times become extremists. In areas of the world where Muslims become the majority, they always suppress the minority. There also doesn't seem to be any such thing as Muslim democracy anywhere in the world. Europe has nearly destroyed itself by letting in huge numbers of Muslims, and it wasn't long enough that they were rioting in the streets, overturning cars and burning anything that would catch fire! And in our cities we hear of honor killings...all these were unknown in the U.S. prior to our throwing open our borders! Further, the penalty for Muslims switching religions is death, which means that if they convert to Christianity there are those who would seek the lives of friends, even members of their own families.

Diverse cultures infrequently blend and we need to take that into consideration before we let them in. If a woman wants to wear a tent with only her eyes showing, that's one thing. But when they don't want to remove the veils over their faces for drivers licenses and other forms of ID like passports, it adversely affects our society. My wife is a Muslim who converted to Christianity when she came here from Iran just before the Revolution, and she despises the religion. Her family and close friends in Iran are middle class and also aren't religious. They don't fast or do prayers, but they're in the minority. There are many in Iran who would like to move here, but like many cultures that arrive, the draw is either education or prosperity. Of course, they must have something to offer than just the open door.

10

Bible from God but not Adam not Literal?

by brokethechain in

i hear some people believe that the bible is from god but because of science and archeology know that there was no global flood and that the first humans go much further back than 6,000 years.

how do you (they) reconcile the geneologies (in number/matthew/luke)?.

Cold Steel

You raise some interesting points.

First, I believe in Adam, because if there was no Adam there would be no need for Christ. No Adam, no disobedience, and no disobedience then no fall. If no fall, there's no need for an atonement.

As far as the flood, keep in mind that it was comparatively very brief and was considered to be a baptism of the Earth. When Jesus returns to the Earth, he will cleanse the world with a baptism of fire. Man cannot see God and remain in the flesh unless they have the protection of the Holy Spirit, and those who are alive at his coming will need that protection. Thus, it will be a baptism of the Holy Spirit. Add to this that many world cultures have legends of a great flood. Some historians assume that since the Babylonians have the oldest account, that the biblical account must have come from the Babylonians. But that's an assumption. If the Bible is true, then the Babylonian version is a distorted account of Noah. But as far as we know, no Hebrew accounts were passed on. Moses tells the story, and he almost certainly received it by revelation from God, and we frankly don't know a lot about it. But the Babylonians, the Greeks, the Olmecs and Mayans, and other North and South American cultures, as well as far eastern cultures all have their versions of the flood story. Something BIG had to have happened.

45

If there is a creator, will an expanding universe ever become bigger than he?

by prologos in

the bible has expressions like: "--god walked in the garden at the breezy part of the day--" .

but more realisticly, speaking in today's lingo:.

if, as accepted by consensus, the universe was "smaller" in the past, expanding out of a zero size singularity, it was "smaller" than the "creator"* at that point in time.

Cold Steel

What you guys are talking about is the nature of God, and there are many things in this thread that are stated as facts that no one could possibly know. The scriptures say that God made man in His image. So why would God need hands, feet, arms, nose, legs and mouth? We're made to accommodate a terrestrial existence. We stand upright, we walk, talk, eat and speak. The scripture that says God is a spirit was a later addition and wasn't in the earliest texts, so His composition remains a bit of a mystery. Spirits can, however, appear as solid as you or me.

My own personal belief is that Jehovah was a spirit in the Old Testament days. But I believe Jehovah was the premortal Jesus. Thus, when Moses, Joshua and the seventy elders of Israel saw Him, He appeared as a flesh and bone being. The thing is, to be perfected Jehovah had to take upon Himself a physical body, die (which is a separation of body and spirit), then be eternally resurrected, which is a reunion of body and spirit. Those who say He was a spirit who "materialized" a body, and as some JWs have said, His real body was taken away perhaps to be displayed during the Millennium. But when Jesus appeared to his apostles, He invited them to "handle me and see" for "a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have." (Luke 24:38) Later, some 500 of the brethren saw the risen Lord, and He was not a spirit. (See 1 Cor. 15:6)

God being omnipresent is a myth. Although a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without Him noticing, He isn't everywhere present. God's presence can be felt in many places at once through the administration of the Holy Spirit. Finally, the scriptures tell us that Jesus is in the "express image" of the Father. If Jesus is therefore perfected with a physical body, why not also the Father?

We also shouldn't put limitations on anything. In a college theology course, my professor quoted from an ancient extra-biblical document. I don't remember where it came from or who allegedly wrote it, but the writer wrote something that I've never forgotten and which I think is profound. He said, essentially, "Everything is a system in the midst of like systems." It was a brilliant observation. A solar system is a system in the midst of like systems. So are galaxies. It's the same thing for microsystems no matter how sensitive our microscopes. So whether microscopes or telescopes, the statement appears to be a truism. My point is this: If the Universe is a system in the midst of like systems, what would prevent there being other universes beyond ours? And other dominions? Clement of Alexandria, who was an expert in First Century Christianity writes that those saints who are exalted "will be enthroned along with the other gods, who are set first in order under the Savior."

And Origen, another early church father, wrote: "Now it is possible that some may dislike what we have said representing the Father as the one true God, but admitting other beings besides the true God, who have become gods by having a share of God. They may fear that the glory of Him who surpasses all creation may be lowered to the level of those other beings called gods. ... [However], as, then there are many gods, but to us there is but one God the Father, and many Lords, but to us there is one Lord, Jesus Christ (cf. 1 Cor. 8:5-6). Although this may sound blasphemous on its face, Irenaeus (115-202) recognizes that the saints become joint heirs with Christ, which means that they, too, like Christ, inherit all that the Father has. He explains: "We were not made gods at our beginning, but first we were made men, then, in the end, gods." Thus, when Adam partook of the forbidden fruit, God (Eloheim, plural) said, "Behold, man has become as one of us."

The Jehovah's Witnesses have long thought they would be happy with a static existence on a Paradise Earth. Hiking, painting, learning to play musical instruments and having family reunions forever, worlds without end, is all they hope for. I remember when I went to school in Hawaii. At first I thought I'd really hit the jackpot. Swimming, diving, lying on the sand and enjoying the breeze while watching surfers. Blue skies, white fluffy clouds and mountains green with vegetation. It was great...for a few months. In that time I drove around the island of Oahu numerous times; I dove at Hunama Bay, did some snorkling at Shark's Cove and stuffed myself at the Polynesian Cultural Center, which had one of the greatest buffets I've ever seen (a friend got me in). But after those few months, I noticed two things: 1) I'd had enough of Paradise and its wonders. I wanted to go back to the mainland. And 2) the natives who'd grown up there were desperate to leave and go to the mainland.

How long would it take for the "great crowd" to tire of their Paradise Earth? Are they, as children of God, satisfied with the prospect of being little more than pets, taking no part in the running of the Universe?

Bottom line: God is not a giant. He's not omnipresent, though he is omnipotent and omniscient. How universes are brought into existence is beyond me, but it's known to God. And man can be a player in the creative process once he is resurrected and becomes an exalted being of incalcuable power and glory. He'll never supplant God, but they can act as gods and heirs. And that's worth living for.

4

Sequence of events leading to Armageddon!

by wannabe in

" [revelation 12:1-12] .

[revelation 16:13-16; 17:14].

" [revelation 18: 22-24] [nlt] [matthew 23:33-36].

Cold Steel

Armageddon takes place in Jerusalem. A power from the north marches on the holy city, which "spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt and in which our Lord was crucified." God calls two prophets who stand against the invaders and they stave them off for three and a half years. After that, the enemy kills them and celebrates for three and a half days. Then, quite suddenly, the prophets stand upon their feet and in the sight of their enemies, they ascend into heaven to meet the coming Savior. Zechariah describes it in chapters 12-14, Ezekiel in chapters 38-39, and John in Revelation 11. And I've never had a Jehovah's Witness or anyone else show me that Armageddon in any way, shape or form was as they describe it. In fact, how can anyone misinterpret this? " And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

That's Armageddon, folks! It doesn't happen in New York or the world, but in Jerusalem. And it doesn't involve Jehovah's Witnesses, it involves the Jews and their ultimate conversion when their Messiah comes. Why will they mourn? Because when they see the wounds from being pierced, they're not idiots...they'll know who He is and what their fathers did to Him. Note the references to "his only son" and "his firstborn." This isn't an accident. And guess what? Armageddon is a place name, as is Hadadrimmon, which is in the valley of Megiddon. There will be mourning there, too, because that's where all but a sixth of them will be killed. In fact, it will take the Jews seven years to bury the bodies and destroy the weapons. Keep in mind that this all happened invisibly in 1914, which is why it wasn't in the papers. Ah, I'm just messin' with you. It'll happen when it happens. But gang, READ MY LIPS...you have no idea what Armageddon is. You keep reading those stupid publications that get cheap ink all over your hands and smell funny!

If you don't believe me, 'splain it to me! I've got an open mind.

I expect Wannabe puts these things in once a week or month, then counts it on his reports as field work if he's still active. I know he's a critic, but he can't shake the original beliefs of his handlers. He pretty much ignores anything that smacks of a discussion and pretends it doesn't exist. Of course, can't see that I blame him. It's hard for him to kick against the pricks.

13

Does The Universe Have a Purpose? Video

by frankiespeakin in

Cold Steel

Yes, religionists do believe the creation of the universe involves them. God, after all, created man in His image. And not only this earth was created for mankind, but we LDS (Mormons) believe that the number of earths created exceed the grains of sand on the shore. In one of our books of scripture, Moses is shown a great vision of the creation of the earth and the extent of God's creations: "And it came to pass that Moses looked, and beheld the world upon which he was created; and Moses beheld the world and the ends thereof, and all the children of men which are, and which were created; of the same he greatly marveled and wondered. ... And the presence of God withdrew from Moses, that his glory was not upon Moses; and Moses was left unto himself. And as he was left unto himself, he fell unto the earth. And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed."

This scripture also states: "And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose.... And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many. But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them."

I can only speak for my own sect, but I have to admit that I know a Pentacoastal who believes the rest of the universe was created only for the people of this earth. You know, to spice up the heavens. To her, it's not that difficult. God speaks and there it is. One universe or five hundred, doesn't matter. To me this is absurd. This earth took a considerable time to create and I don't believe God speaks anything into existence; but there are many different religions and sects and there are varying views.